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Now tell me about the mechanism - they caught the last train for the coast, the day...
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they caught the last train for the coast, the day...
Things have been a bit busy in ascianland, so I didn't get to see Angel until last night, and then it was suddenly 3am and thus time to go to bed.

However, I have Thoughts. Yeah, yeah... late to the party. I know.


Here's how I think about the difference between knowing things and understanding them. Things which are known are present, but flat. Like words on a page. Two dimensions. Things which are becoming understood lift themselves up and inflate, suddenly, into three dimensions. When they become shapes, then they can have meaning.

When Connor brushed himself off after killing Sahjahn, and turned to face his father, some things which were flat before started to get up and move around.

In practical terms, I suppose it goes something like this: if I had read a year ago that Connor was the face of Angel's redemption, I would have nodded and cruised right past without giving it more than a brief consideration and probably a shrug. Now, I could wake up at 3am with the sudden, shaking realization that Connor is the face of Angel's redemption. The words are the same, but the shapes are different, now. Things have been taken out, moved around, reconfigured. Lines acquire volume, and learn how to dance.

Things which have volume can be turned around. Closed shapes can be sliced.

1.

[info]superplin cut it like this: It turns out that you can be saved by a lie.

And this is interesting, right, because it's not the first understanding that you want to reach for. The intuitive grasp of the deal that Angel made to take over Wolfram and Hart goes along these lines: Order was returned by a lie. Peace obtained by a violation. Autonomy exchanged for power. We understand all of these things to be negative exchanges, and wait for the fallout. The idea that the lie is the right thing does not really fit the rules of the A-verse as they are understood, because isn't the story always about Doing The Right Thing? People who Do The Right Thing do not violate the minds of third parties, no matter how good the reason. People who Do the Right Thing do not buy into the machine at any price (or maybe they do; we all make the same deal every day, so it's really hard to be sure about this.)

But the lie unravels, and the ending is happier than Angel (and everyone else) has any right to expect. Connor is content; Angel receives a kind of forgiveness. Peace replaces pain. Can you really be saved by a lie?

As in so many cases, I want to say yes and I want to say no. The fact that the lie was an unambiguously wrong choice in utilitarian terms - greatest good for the greatest number - clashes with the evidence. Connor is happier; Wesley has found a replacement hell. Although the mindwipe is no less of a violation for that, there's something odd in the way it touches Wes. Wes tries to do the right thing by "saving" Connor and delivering him to Justine; it kicks off a nightmarish period of descent, desperation, betrayal, and the complete absence of hope. His relationship with Angel sundered; his relationship with Justine twisted and cut into wire and broken glass; his relationship with Lilah founded on his own terrible emptiness.

Stop; go back. Start over. Wes is back where he started, maybe even a little better. His relationship with his friends intact. A chance with Fred. Betrayals erased. But this Wes - the Wes who never kept a woman in his closet - still empties his clip into what he believes to be his father. This Wes gets the girl, finally, and finds that she has turned hollow in his grasp. The two threads end in the same place: isolated, broken. Hollow. Wes can't be saved by a lie, but then, it seems that Wes can't be saved at all.


2.

Cut again. This time, another axis: The wrong decision for the right reasons.

Does motivation matter? Is it better to do bad with good intentions, or good with bad ones? Angelmorality says that intent should matter more, but if you asked the recipients, they'd probably opt for the results.

In the Jossverse, this question is usually tilted sideways. In practice, it's usually hard to tell the good reasons from the bad ones. Every action is chosen for a reason, and there's usually a way to justify it or believe in it that looks like "the right reasons" if you squint at it hard enough. So reset the question. Base the decision on an internal compass instead of an external one. Are you acting out of a personal understanding of The Right Thing, or an abstract (universal) one? Abstract tends to be self-destructive; personal is usually pitched as world-destructive. Both Angel's story and Buffy's are, in a sense, about conflict between what you want and what you have to do.

Where Buffy's story was about needing to reconcile those things, though, Angel's starting place is already firmly in the camp of the abstract good. He's tried the "what you want" part, and tens of thousands of people died. Now he doesn't want what he wants. He's afraid that anything he wants is wrong. Buffy had a ground state of "girl" that was moving (always reluctantly) towards "hero". Angel has a ground state of "hero" that ultimately needs to inch towards "man."

Each story proves the point from the opposite direction: you have to find a way to meet in the middle. You can't do good unless your heart is in it. You need the heart, or how else can you tell what good is?

When Angel chose the mindwipe, he made a very typically Angel decision, to make things better for the people he loved without asking them whether they wanted it or not. Now, I don't think this can ever be a good thing, in and of itself. It's a kind of rape; it's wrong. But the difference in this case is that Angel made the decision for love, rather than in denial of it. He chose a personal Right Thing - saving his son, rescuing his son and giving him back his life - over the abstract Right Thing. That's a huge thing for Angel. Angel chose the good of the heart over the Good of the world.

Maybe you can't be saved by a lie. But maybe you can be saved by love.


3.

And again. Cut here: Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Connor is many things. Connor is a beloved child. Connor is a mythic hero, or villain. Connor is broken beyond comprehension, twisted and betrayed. Connor is well-adjusted, and doing well in school. Connor is loved. Connor is loved. Connor is loved. Connor proves the case that sometimes, all love does is cut. And then, he proves that sometimes it's enough to make you whole.

Connor is, among other things, the embodiment of Angel's worst fears. He's the son that Angel stole from so many families. Angel knew, in him, what it meant to have the world, and what it means to have it taken away.

Connor is the innocence that Angel made a career out of stealing, returned twisted and changed, redirected into a destructive force. Connor - Stephen - was the embodiment of Angel's inability to forgive himself. Connor stood there as the personification of all the worst things that Angel has done, and Angel asked forgiveness, and was refused.

But Angel loves Connor, and that's the difference. He doesn't love himself. He can't. He sees what Connor saw - all the black marks on his soul, a weight of betrayal that can never be eased. But he can't stop loving Connor, can't help it, and won't turn away from it. He will love Connor to the end, even if it means killing him and remaking the world around that act. Connor is the embodiment of Angel's heart, worth loving at last, damaged as it is.

Angel took the world away from his friends, but he gave it back to his son. And even though it was a lie... even though Connor's whole life was a lie, it wasn't the truth of it that mattered. It was the fact that he had something he'd never had before: a choice. Love or betrayal? Pain or belonging? This Connor remembers both, and when he has the chance to choose, he does something that's both extraordinary (considering where he's coming from) and totally understandable, remembering that he's made the same choice before. More than anything, Connor wants somewhere to belong, to love and be loved and be safe. Jasmine offered it to him, once, and he accepted it from her. But the world that Angel created for him offers a different thing entirely, and something completely unexpected: perspective. All of the experience that the first, broken Connor might have one gained, the things he might have learned about love and family if he'd had enough time, all of that stuff was sort of backloaded into him. And although it was a decision that Angel made for him, all it really did in the end was give him the ability to make better choices of his own. Connor chose life.

Now, you could argue that when Connor said "I learned that from my father," the father he really meant was Holtz. And I think it's certainly possible, but I also thing that he also meant Angel. Connor - both Connors, the broken and the remade - looked back from the elevator with a tiny, genuine smile, and meant it in forgiveness.


4.

Cut here: Everything I never needed to know about raising a child, I learned from Angel.

I always get uncomfortable about the idea that stories exist to push a moral agenda, or that deriving one from the story is a necessary part of reading it. This whole line of questioning is as good an illustration as any of where I'm coming from on that score, because I don't think the reading works if you take it out of context. Angel wants to do good, but can't follow his heart; doing good in the Jossverse isn't possible without one. Everything that happens to Angel as a result of this conflict is directed towards it, and if you want a lesson, I suppose you can take that one, but it makes a better story than it does an absolute truth.

The thing is, I think, that we have an innate tendency to want a sort of abstract morality - bad deeds lead to bad ends, unless you can count up the good intentions in Column B and subtract them from the total on Line F. A lot of stories are told that way, and it's fine, as far as it goes.

The thing that's powerful about Angel's story in my mind (and Buffy's, and most of the ones that are really worth hearing) is the ways that it doesn't balance out. The way you can't possibly add the way people behave and who they are with the results that it brings, because we're not an economy of actions. We're people. And we're messy like that. Sometimes, we love people who don't deserve it. Sometimes we do bad things and sometimes we do good things, and sometimes we can't figure out the difference. We're a bit embarassed about that, because we want things to be clearer, but they're not. We want to be able to reconcile fictional relationships into healthy forms (or understandable ones) but then we have stupid, incomprehensible relationships of our own. We want to see people getting it right, even while we're inevitably, somehow, always getting it wrong.

Somehow, Angel did get it right, despite everything.

Connor grew up smart and tough and brave, at last, and if I were Angel (and hell, even if I were me)... well, I'd be proud.

mood: busy busy
now playing: american pie, don mclean

Comments
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ros_fod From: [info]ros_fod Date: April 23rd, 2004 03:43 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Fuck. I...I want to say something coherent. I really do. Fuck.

Marry me?
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 23rd, 2004 05:32 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Marry me?

You bet! :-)

I'm so glad this made you happy the way it made me happy. Your Connor-love is an awesome and powerful thing to behold. I love the way you love him.

::dances you around::

sdwolfpup From: [info]sdwolfpup Date: April 23rd, 2004 04:07 pm (UTC) (permalink)
*gets in line behind [info]ros_fod*

That was remarkable.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 23rd, 2004 05:34 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Aww, thanks. :-)

::dances you around, too::

Your icon... sniff... but I don't WANT it to be the end!

::cries::
blackcat333_99 From: [info]blackcat333_99 Date: April 23rd, 2004 04:13 pm (UTC) (permalink)
May I just say... Wow. Yes. WORD.

And this...

When Angel chose the mindwipe, he made a very typically Angel decision, to make things better for the people he loved without asking them whether they wanted it or not. Now, I don't think this can ever be a good thing, in and of itself. It's a kind of rape; it's wrong. But the difference in this case is that Angel made the decision for love, rather than in denial of it. He chose a personal Right Thing - saving his son, rescuing his son and giving him back his life - over the abstract Right Thing. That's a huge thing for Angel. Angel chose the good of the heart over the Good of the world.

yeah - that's why I never really had a problem w/ Angel chosing the mindwipe - wrong as it is from the morally abstract POV. Because of the motivation and intent behind it.

Maybe you can't be saved by a lie. But maybe you can be saved by love.

Yup. Lies, after all, always get revealed in the end (in Whedon-verse). But it is love that is usually the reason for salvation. Angel's love for Buffy. (Motivated him to "become someone"). Angel's love of humans (Why he fights the good fight). Angel's love of his FG family (Why their relationships have withstood the stresses and cracks that have occurred from time to time). Angel's love of his son (Gave Connor a chance to start over - and Connor has responded in the most positive way possible).



ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 12:35 am (UTC) (permalink)
I've always liked that love is a complicated force in the Jossverse. Sometimes all it does is hurt, and sometimes it's the only thing that really helps. Sometimes it's both at once, and sometimes, it doesn't matter at all.
dlgood From: [info]dlgood Date: April 23rd, 2004 04:29 pm (UTC) (permalink)
The fact that the lie was an unambiguously wrong choice in utilitarian terms - greatest good for the greatest number - clashes with the evidence.

And that's one of the challenges of utilitariasm. Of life. We're flawed. We have imperfect information. We have to assign weights to some values or others. We have to make our calculus, consciously or no. And we can't know for certain. So we have to gamble. We have to find some form of faith, something to believe in, so that we are not paralyzed by our uncertainty.

And we have to work, to challenge ourselves that we have gathered enough information, that we have gathered that information in a correct way, that we judge information correctly, that the baseline values that underlie our calculations are worthy values.

That's the challenge of life. Angel's challenges are just more, uh, challenging.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 12:38 am (UTC) (permalink)
And that's one of the challenges of utilitariasm. Of life. We're flawed. We have imperfect information. We have to assign weights to some values or others. We have to make our calculus, consciously or no. And we can't know for certain. So we have to gamble. We have to find some form of faith, something to believe in, so that we are not paralyzed by our uncertainty.

I think this is absolutely true. The idea that there's one right or wrong answer is always going to obscure the real decisions that need to be made.

Angel's challenges are just more, uh, challenging.

It's probably just as well - a series about a vampire who spent most of his time weighing the relative merits of stealing pens from the office would be kind of dull. ;-)
thecomingnight From: [info]thecomingnight Date: April 23rd, 2004 04:33 pm (UTC) (permalink)
i. love. you.

*nods*

no other words.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 12:38 am (UTC) (permalink)
Well, thank you. :-)
revdorothyl From: [info]revdorothyl Date: April 23rd, 2004 04:43 pm (UTC) (permalink)

Sheer poetry

I followed ros_fod's recommendation here, and wow! You say beautifully and simply and effectively what a lot of the rest of us have been blundering around and burying beneath too many layers of theory and verbiage. This is insight of no mean order, you've got here.

Buffy had a ground state of "girl" that was moving (always reluctantly) towards "hero". Angel has a ground state of "hero" that ultimately needs to inch towards "man."

Yes! Wasn't that a big part of what Buffy did for Angel, at least in the first two seasons, treating him like a 'man'? (I'm thinking of Xander's words to Angel in "Prophecy Girl", that Buffy thinks Angel is a real person, and this is a chance to prove it; or Angelus' words to Spike and Dru, saying that he can't forgive Buffy for making him feel human; or even, by extension, Spike's words to Buffy in "The Gift": "...I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man...")

Maybe you can't be saved by a lie. But maybe you can be saved by love.

Amen.

All of the experience that the first, broken Connor might have once gained, the things he might have learned about love and family if he'd had enough time, all of that stuff was sort of backloaded into him. And although it was a decision that Angel made for him, all it really did in the end was give him the ability to make better choices of his own. Connor chose life.

Exactly! What I was trying to say in my own analysis (and irrevocably buried along the way, I fear) was that the fake memories, which Connor had no choice in receiving in the first place (though he was begging for something, some different past, I think, when he was getting ready to blow himself up), ended up giving him more freedom of choice, more truly free will, than he'd ever had before, because they allowed him to see the other side, to balance a lifetime's memories of trauma and horror with a lifetime's memories of being protected and loved and trusted. If all you've ever known is evil and abuse and horror, just how much freedom of choice do you really have? Theologians and trial lawyers will probably continue to argue about this.

We want to be able to reconcile fictional relationships into healthy forms (or understandable ones) but then we have stupid, incomprehensible relationships of our own. We want to see people getting it right, even while we're inevitably, somehow, always getting it wrong.

An excellent description of the way we use these beloved shows and their universes and people as both mirrors and blank canvases upon which to project our own issues.

Thanks for posting this!
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 12:51 am (UTC) (permalink)

Re: Sheer poetry

Well, thank you!

Yes! Wasn't that a big part of what Buffy did for Angel, at least in the first two seasons, treating him like a 'man'? (I'm thinking of Xander's words to Angel in "Prophecy Girl", that Buffy thinks Angel is a real person, and this is a chance to prove it; or Angelus' words to Spike and Dru, saying that he can't forgive Buffy for making him feel human; or even, by extension, Spike's words to Buffy in "The Gift": "...I know I'm a monster, but you treat me like a man...")

Now that you say this, I think this is a big part of what's going on with Connor's story, too. There's an extent to which Connor was always exactly what he was expected and raised to be - an instrument of revenge and destruction. The remade version of Connor lives up to the expectations of his new situation - treated as a normal, loved child, that's what he turns out to be.

The commonalities are even more interesting - both versions have their own strong sense of... I want to say morality here, but I'm not sure that's right. Structure, perhaps. Of the world and their relationship to it, and of the relative value of the people and things in their lives (his life). It just goes in different directions. Connor wants very badly to protect something and to be of service to those he loves - just like his father. And just like his father, he's also capable of great darkness. They bounce off each other's storylines, and reflect.
onetwomany From: [info]onetwomany Date: April 23rd, 2004 05:26 pm (UTC) (permalink)
As always, you blow me away, both with your incredible thoughts, and the beautiful language with which you express them.

Does motivation matter? Is it better to do bad with good intentions, or good with bad ones? Angelmorality says that intent should matter more, but if you asked the recipients, they'd probably opt for the results.

I'm gonna venture in here and say, in the real world, I'm far less concerned with motivations than with results. I'm broadly a rule utilitarian - a few basic principles that can be justified on the grounds of provwn, long term consequences, and everything else judged largely by what produces the best overall results. I'm deeply skeptical of people who are determined to "do good" and "be good", because, it seems to me, those people have been responsible for just as much, if not more, pain and suffering than all the "I will crush humanity beneath my feet" dictators. Very few people see themselves as evil, but you can witness it in the results.

Which puts me in a bit of a dilemma with Angel and his choice. I think he meant well, and for as long as the lie lasted, it worked. But such things always go to hell, because it was a decision made for others, not by them. Would Wes have now rather remained ignorant of the past? Very possibly. Here's where you get into that whole MArxist thing of false consciousness. And, frankly, I prefer my allegedly false happiness to the risk of the unknown, so prehaps he did too.

Wow, that was rambly and probably made no sense. I need sleep...;)\

Anyway, fabulous analysis, as always :)
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 12:58 am (UTC) (permalink)
I'm deeply skeptical of people who are determined to "do good" and "be good", because, it seems to me, those people have been responsible for just as much, if not more, pain and suffering than all the "I will crush humanity beneath my feet" dictators. Very few people see themselves as evil, but you can witness it in the results.

Yeah, me too. I never meet bad people, but I meet a lot of people who do bad things, or who do things in bad ways. I really don't think there are many people at all who think of themselves as evil, and even then, I'm still more worried about the ones who are willing to hurt others or marginalize the human costs of things because "it's the right thing to do." I'd really rather people did the human thing, all told. I think it's safer.

I'm still of two minds about Angel's choice. I think it was absolutely the most beneficial thing for Connor, and ultimately for Angel, too - Angel traded life for peace, and he actually got it. (Color me stunned, even now.) But I still think it was, overall, a wrong thing to do, simply because it did steal choice and will from others. Not that I would have it undone if I were him, but... there's some fine distinction there between means and ends, and Angel crossed it, even though things worked out okay (or at least no worse.)
minim_calibre From: [info]minim_calibre Date: April 23rd, 2004 05:45 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Damn, this was a good read.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:00 am (UTC) (permalink)
Thank you. :-) I really enjoyed your comments, too, though I didn't have time to comment last night (in the oh-so-brief time between Angel and sleeping). I completely relate to the part about waking up with plot points clicking into place, because the same thing happened to me.
jodiac From: [info]jodiac Date: April 23rd, 2004 06:01 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Maybe you can't be saved by a lie. But maybe you can be saved by love.

Thanks for putting it so beautifully. This is insightful and so touching at the same time! ::adds to memories::
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:01 am (UTC) (permalink)
You can be damned by it, too, in the Jossverse. But it doesn't make the saving less meaningful. Maybe the opposite, in fact, because you never know which side of the coin you're going to get.

Thank you. :-)

(Also, I love your icon.)
kita0610 From: [info]kita0610 Date: April 23rd, 2004 06:13 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Uhm...I don't know who you are, but if you like, need your lawn mowed or something heavy moved..ok, I can't do it, but uh...cookies! I can bake you cookies. Or you know, sexual favors.

Beautiful, objective and spot the hell on.

Thank you for this.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:02 am (UTC) (permalink)
Wow, it's not every day that people offer to bake me sexual favors. How can I pass that up? I'm putting on an apron as I type.

Thank you. :-)
coffeeandink From: [info]coffeeandink Date: April 23rd, 2004 06:16 pm (UTC) (permalink)
That's lovely.

Because I am anal, I must point out that

Wes tries to do the right thing by "saving" Connor and delivering him to Justine;</>

is incorrect. If he were delivering Connor to Justine and not kidnapping the baby himself, he wouldn't have been surprised to see Justine in the park or only approached her with a gun held on her.

Now, you could argue that when Connor said "I learned that from my father," the father he really meant was Holtz.

But Connor says, "You have to protect your family. I learned that from my father." Holtz never protected his family; he could only avenge them. (Angelus and Darla taunt him with placing the hunt over his domestic commitments, and I always read guilt at the truth of this as being part of Holtz's motivation.) Holtz placed vengeance above the protection of his foster son -- though I'd argue that he himself had such a thoroughly warped idea of good that he may have thought that getting Connor to kill Angel was the price of Connor's redemption.

This Connor remembers both, and when he has the chance to choose, he does something that's both extraordinary (considering where he's coming from) and totally understandable, remembering that he's made the same choice before. More than anything, Connor wants somewhere to belong, to love and be loved and be safe.

I would argue, actually, that Connor's desire for family was never expressed in terms of physical safety; like Angel, he conceives of family as something he can protect. I suppose you could argue that being needed is a kind of emotional safety. (Cf. Cordelia in early S3.)
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:12 am (UTC) (permalink)
is incorrect. If he were delivering Connor to Justine and not kidnapping the baby himself, he wouldn't have been surprised to see Justine in the park or only approached her with a gun held on her.

Um, yeah. You're very right about that - I'm a casualty of my own enthusiasm (and caffeination) on this and a few other scores. Now that I've thought about this more, I think I really need to go back and watch that arc again to pick up on all the details I've lost along the way.

I would argue, actually, that Connor's desire for family was never expressed in terms of physical safety; like Angel, he conceives of family as something he can protect. I suppose you could argue that being needed is a kind of emotional safety. (Cf. Cordelia in early S3.)

That's actually sort of what I did mean (though I wasn't really thinking about the distinction until you pointed it out) - the safety of being part of something, as opposed to the safety to being protected by something. That's really what he got when he willingly bought into Jasmine's world - knowing that he was part of something larger than himself, and that he was needed (and thus, loved). I think that to Connor's way of thinking, being loved is something that can come and go, and may or may not make a difference. Being needed, now - you can guarantee that you'll always have a place if you're needed. (I can relate to this idea a bit more than I want to admit, since it's exactly how I think about my job.)
avrelia From: [info]avrelia Date: April 23rd, 2004 06:22 pm (UTC) (permalink)
I envy people who write coherent thoughts just after seeing the episode. I have to think, to read, then to think some more, and then everything already said – much better than I ever could. Here is a drawback of an unorganized thought. That meant: I love you and your analysis.

Maybe you can't be saved by a lie. But maybe you can be saved by love.

There is no way we theoretically can decide what is the right thing to do in any given situation. Or – well – we can, but it will not work out. There is no Ultimate Answer to fit everything. And – surprise – it turned out that Angel did the right thing (giving Connor a real life, though a fake one) by doing the wrong thing (violating his friends’ will and memories).

Wes can't be saved by a lie, but then, it seems that Wes can't be saved at all.

I wouldn’t say that, mostly because I don’t like it. What seems to me is that Wes’ life and personality led him to the point where he is now – one way or another. Would he be different without the mindwipe? Probably. I don’t think though that the place he is now in is the end of it. May be it is better for him to understand now that it is not some evil forces screwed him, but he did. (Evil forces just helped ;)
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:25 am (UTC) (permalink)
I envy people who can write after they've had time to think about it. ;-) I'm very hot and cold, and it always seems to work better when I just let the story do its thing and don't think about it too much. After a short time I get stale on it, and then bored. (Always a problem for me, really.)

I wouldn’t say that, mostly because I don’t like it. What seems to me is that Wes’ life and personality led him to the point where he is now – one way or another.

Hmm. I think it might be truer in that situation to say that Wes can't be saved or damned by Angel's action or inaction - he's on his own path, and it seems that he's predisposed to ending up in the same dark place. I don't think it's the end, either - or I hope it's not, but I'm not sure, since it's very dark and there's not much (not enough?) time left. I hope he gets a better ending, though. He deserves it.
cicer From: [info]cicer Date: April 23rd, 2004 07:31 pm (UTC) (permalink)
This completely blew my mind. I think it may have completely redefined the way I think about the characters.

The most coherent and intelligent response I can come up with is yes. Yes, yes, yes. Exactly. That is Buffy, and Angel, and Connor, and Jossverse morality. That is human behavior. That is all the messy, confusing gray areas that we encounter in the shows and in life.

This was just brilliant. I'm in awe. Beautifully put, brilliant, amazing thoughts. Thank you so much for posting this.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:26 am (UTC) (permalink)
Thank you. :-)
asta77 From: [info]asta77 Date: April 23rd, 2004 09:26 pm (UTC) (permalink)
I could watch the episode a dozen times, spend two weeks writing up my thoughts, and it still wouldn't be damn near as good as what you wrote. I hate you. :p

The intuitive grasp of the deal that Angel made to take over Wolfram and Hart goes along these lines: Order was returned by a lie. Peace obtained by a violation. Autonomy exchanged for power.

Wait, wasn't that the Jasmine storyline? There's my in depth analysis for the night. ;)

Wes can't be saved by a lie, but then, it seems that Wes can't be saved at all.

Wow, just, wow. I'm beginning to wonder that myself. His tether use to be Fred. She's gone and his seemingly last hope of saving her is too. But, even if he can still bring her back, remembering what he has done, does he even feel worthy of her affection any longer? Or, with her memories returned, does he fear she can't?
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:32 am (UTC) (permalink)
I could watch the episode a dozen times, spend two weeks writing up my thoughts, and it still wouldn't be damn near as good as what you wrote. I hate you. :p

Heeee. I can guarantee you that if I watched the ep a dozen times and spent two weeks writing up my thoughts, I wouldn't be able to write about it at *all*. :-) It's better if I don't think too much. Really it is.

I'm beginning to wonder that myself. His tether use to be Fred. She's gone and his seemingly last hope of saving her is too.

I hope for Wes's sake that he finds another tether. He needs to find something in himself that he can hang on to, if he's going to be able to pull out of his personal dark place before the end. (Poor boy.)

And, you're right - the Jasmine arc totally does echo that part of the Wolfram and Hart arc.
superplin From: [info]superplin Date: April 23rd, 2004 10:35 pm (UTC) (permalink)
I peeked, because I am bad and weak. And I'm so glad I did!

First of all, thank you. You're the first person who seems to have gotten what i meant by that line (a post which mostly convinced me that there's a reason I can't use concise forms of expression, because they never seem to work right; my communication skills just don't function at the short-wave level, apparently).

I agree with all of what you say, and it's a lot of what I loved about this episode, the way it explores these subjects in unexpected and complex ways. And I have so very much to say on the subject of Wes vs. Connor, but I'm trying to actually write something about this episode, for once, so I'll shut up now.

But this was great. Just great.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: April 24th, 2004 01:35 am (UTC) (permalink)
Hah, I made you weak! I feel so proud.

I am desperate to go visit TatF and see what everyone else is saying - can I buy an extra day in my weekend? No? An extra hour, then? Damn. I have high hopes for Sunday.

Your one-liner may have turned out to be more cryptic than you expected, but it really got me thinking. So thanks, for that. I love it when the story starts to take on a life of its own and abscond with my brain.
anirt From: [info]anirt Date: April 24th, 2004 07:07 am (UTC) (permalink)
Wow, A. You're post was really thoughtful, and yet at the same time, I feel completely unspoiled for when I finally watch it.
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: May 3rd, 2004 12:46 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Hey T. :-) I suck for taking so long to respond, but I'm glad you liked the post.
swmbo From: [info]swmbo Date: April 24th, 2004 05:44 pm (UTC) (permalink)
I'm sitting here stunned and I can't thank you enough for this. I'd steal you away from ros_fod if I could, it was that amazing.

Angel has a ground state of "hero" that ultimately needs to inch towards "man."

This is the best, the absolute best definition/description of Angel that I've ever read in my life.

In practice, it's usually hard to tell the good reasons from the bad ones. Every action is chosen for a reason, and there's usually a way to justify it or believe in it that looks like "the right reasons" if you squint at it hard enough.

*sighs happily* Exactly, and even when they seem to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they're in the right - there are all the factors they don't know, can't know. Nobody can know all of the pieces of the puzzle when they make a decision, they have to just go on those things they know or feel or think and the fact is - half the time those facts are wrong or misconstrued. And we/they can't help that. The fact that they just keep trying...that they want to do SOME sort of right thing. And the idea that they spend so much time thinking about universal responsibilty they do sometimes forget the personal. That they don't believe they deserve personal happiness, even, and that that is one of the flaws. And I am babbling, I'm so sorry!

Sometimes we do bad things and sometimes we do good things, and sometimes we can't figure out the difference.

You have the most beautiful and eloquent way with words. Thank you so much for this post, it has said things that I've only half felt and things that I've never thought of. I can not tell you how much I appreciate it.
soundingsea From: [info]soundingsea Date: April 24th, 2004 07:13 pm (UTC) (permalink)
I read this three times over and I'm too brain-meltingly tired to say anything intelligent about it. So, wow. Great analysis. It's great how complex and well-structured the jossverse is.
From: [info]vandalisimo Date: April 25th, 2004 08:16 am (UTC) (permalink)
Fantastic post. So much to think about in there.

Buffy had a ground state of "girl" that was moving (always reluctantly) towards "hero". Angel has a ground state of "hero" that ultimately needs to inch towards "man."

Oh. I loved this.
angelfirenze From: [info]angelfirenze Date: April 27th, 2004 02:03 pm (UTC) (permalink)

Right and Wrong and...are you a graduate student?

Ok, I'm quoting ros_fod here: Fuck. You're...a...a fucking genius. And I don't usually like to swear but...fucking hell, you're like...the Angel version of Freud!

'Vat do we do here, ve segue-vay, vat else?'-Sigmund Frued, courtesy of 89X (88.7 fm) here in Michigan. I think I need to lie on a long couch and think.
elisem From: [info]elisem Date: April 28th, 2004 05:01 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Yummy analysis and response. May I friend you, please? Want more yummy.

Am working on more coherent response, but so far, it all seems to boil down to "Shiny! Want!"
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: May 3rd, 2004 12:49 pm (UTC) (permalink)
You're welcome to friend me. The comprehensive post-ep analysis thing doesn't always happen, but it often does, and you're welcome to take your chances. :-) I'm glad you liked the post.
monanotlisa From: [info]monanotlisa Date: May 3rd, 2004 08:16 am (UTC) (permalink)

WOW.

If I didn't already love you, I'd fall for you right about Connor is the face of Angel's redemption.

My mind's too boggled right now; will return to you later tonight after I've done some (::sigh::) law.
monanotlisa From: [info]monanotlisa Date: May 3rd, 2004 08:17 am (UTC) (permalink)

Re: WOW.

Plus, you don't only listen to one of my all-time favourite songs, you *use it as a subject line*.

Dump Rob, eh, and get with me?

& :-P
monanotlisa From: [info]monanotlisa Date: May 3rd, 2004 12:41 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Order was returned by a lie. Peace obtained by a violation. Autonomy exchanged for power. We understand all of these things to be negative exchanges, and wait for the fallout. The idea that the lie is the right thing does not really fit the rules of the A-verse as they are understood, because isn't the story always about Doing The Right Thing? People who Do The Right Thing do not violate the minds of third parties, no matter how good the reason. People who Do the Right Thing do not buy into the machine at any price


Yes, yes, yes. But of course, these aren't just the rules of the Angelverse; they are a constant of conventional storytelling...and maybe this is the key, for this show isn't interested in the linear rules of Right and Wrong: it bends them, curls them, twists them around until it's almost impossible to tell which is which, creating a double helix--
try to separate the strands, and you either destroy or create something new.

Wes can't be saved by a lie, but then, it seems that Wes can't be saved at all.

So ghastly, yet so true. Wes, even more than Angel, is bound to lose the ones he loves and, just as importantly, to either betray or be betrayed by this friend and champion who stands for a mission much greater than his own life.

Are you acting out of a personal understanding of The Right Thing, or an abstract (universal) one? Abstract tends to be self-destructive; personal is usually pitched as world-destructive. Both Angel's story and Buffy's are, in a sense, about conflict between what you want and what you have to do.

Glblrlrlkl... ::speechless::

Say, have you thought about my proposal? & :-P

Absolutely. Wow.

Buffy, of course, eminently defiant, goes for both sorts of Right Thing, shifting back and forth-- entering the Master's Lair, she sacrifices herself for the world (if not disconnected from her love for it, for her friends), which is, easy enough, all about the abstract and the destruction of self...but she only swan-dives off the tower after she was willing to sacrifice everything for Dawn's sake-- it doesn't get more personal and world-destructive...

Buffy had a ground state of "girl" that was moving (always reluctantly) towards "hero". Angel has a ground state of "hero" that ultimately needs to inch towards "man."

Lovely-- if you use the wide definition of "hero", for Angel is, in many ways, the personification of an anti-hero: a demon, darkness that's become flesh and is only lit by this flickering candle of his soul; even if you take the metaphorical step and look at him as a recovering alcoholic trying to mend the broken pieces and carve out a new niche for himself, he's not exactly a fairytale prince.

Well, okay, a fairytale prince of darkness.

& ;-)

Somehow, Angel did get it right, despite everything.
Connor grew up smart and tough and brave, at last, and if I were Angel (and hell, even if I were me)... well, I'd be proud.


Angel got it right-- but only regarding Connor. In this microverse of father-son relationships, he did exactly what would turn out to be the best course of action...but meanwhile, the macroverse is spinning out of control, still turning and turning in the widening gyre...

tesla321 From: [info]tesla321 Date: May 15th, 2004 09:37 pm (UTC) (permalink)
Where have you been all my life?

You've put into words what I felt about Angel, about his reasons for doing everything since he first got Connor, about that episode.
I disliked Connor, as a character, intensely, all the way through
seasons three and four; yet when I got the chance to watch the Connor shows in sequence, I loved him, I was afraid of him and for him and pitied him. When he returned, I was startled at how overjoyed I was.

Good work.
quasi_hayley From: [info]quasi_hayley Date: March 13th, 2005 02:29 pm (UTC) (permalink)
That was a wicked analysis, coherent and well-expressed and you've given me a whole load of stuff to think about. Please, please may I archive the Connor sections at Archaic Reputation?
ascian3 From: [info]ascian3 Date: March 14th, 2005 05:10 am (UTC) (permalink)
Thank you! It's always startling and a little gratifying to see new comments pop up for something posted so long ago as this. You're certainly welcome to archive the post.
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We played this song in Utrecht, Holland, and in my secret heart I'd been hoping that the two-piece version would whip the audience into paroxysms of emotion. I had envisioned romantic young Dutch men and women taking to the streets, pulling the old men away from their chess games and forming them into minor league baseball clubs with names like the Dordrecht Wild Ferns or the Ooji Interminable Dysfunctional Relationships. Instead, the soundman cursed at us because he thought we were making fun of the music he'd been playing over the PA as we took the stage. The music was Guv'ner, and I was not making fun of them. I was dancing.

--liner notes for "Going to Bangor", from the Mountain Goats' Bitter Melon Farm.
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